Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

154

Last Night's Intervention

by brotherdan in

jw
friends

i'm afraid of starting a new post because i've stepped on a few feet here with my last post... but i still love you guys.. last night i went home to find my wife and her friend on the couch with the bible, ready to show me how i'm wrong and exercising "apostate thinking".

my wife said, "i am unable to fight you with the bible because you know more than me about it.

but k** knows more and will be able to show you how you are wrong.. so my wife went into the other room so as not to be stumbled by my discussion.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Sounds like your wife's friend used the typical Watchtower excuses for their long, glorious history of false prophecies. Here, they simply redefine the word "prophecy" so narrowly that it's basically impossible to be a false prophet. As a side note, the Watchtower is comfortable with redefining words as it sees fit--see, for example, the latest "generation" debacle.

I would like to ask Watchtower followers such as your wife's friend if they can give me an example of any modern day false prophets. The Bible said there will be false prophets in the Last Days, and the JWs say that these are the Last Days. (for example, Matt. 24:11, 24; Mark 13:22). Thus, they should be able to point out some false prophets.

But the way the WTS contorts the meaning of "prophecy," it's hard to find any examples that would fit. As long as you can tie your prediction to a "Bible prophecy" then you run no risk of being a false prophet--rather you're just "keeping alert."

Thus, Watchtower logic excuses hucksters like Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) and Ed Whisenant (88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988) from being false prophets because those guys tie their predictions to Daniel, Revelation, etc. Heck, even David Koresh based his predictions on the Bible. But none of these hucksters are false prophets in Watchtower-land!

So in order to be a "false prophet" under Watchtower logic, you've got to make up something from whole cloth and claim that God gave it directly to you. Every Christian End-Times doomsday predictor from Miller to Russell to Rutherford to Lindsey to Franz to Whisenant to Koresh has tried to tie his predictions to the Bible.

Thus, the Watchtower has absolved all of these clowns of false prophecy. Too funny.

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

Olin Moyles Ghost

You'll notice that Witnesses will try to explain away their false predictions, claiming they're not "prophecies" because they're merely "interpretations of Bible prophecy." Thus, the Watchtower is opens up a giant loophole. As long as you can tie your prediction to a "Bible prophecy" then you run no risk of being a false prophet.

Thus, Watchtower logic excuses hucksters like Hal Lindsey (Late Great Planet Earth) and Ed Whisenant (88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988) from being false prophets because those guys tie their predictions to Daniel, Revelation, etc.

So in order to be a "false prophet" under Watchtower logic, you've got to make up something from whole cloth and claim that God gave it directly to you. Every Christian End-Times doomsday predictor from Miller to Russell to Rutherford to Lindsey to Franz to Whisenant has tried to tie his predictions to the Bible. Thus, the Watchtower has absolved all of these clowns of false prophecy. Too funny.

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

One more from the New World Translation - 2014 "centennial" edition:

1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler or someone who does not agree with every doctrine currently taught by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. With such a man do not even eat."

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

Olin Moyles Ghost

@brotherdan: you've witnessed an example of "grasping at straws" and attempting to "have your cake and eat it too."

I've heard other JWs use the Nathan/David/temple example you mentioned. But if you take the time to actually read the account, you quickly realize how weak an argument it is. It's at 2 Samuel 7:1-17. The key verse is verse 3 where, after David tells Nathan that he wants to build a temple, Nathan says "Whatever you have in mind, go ahead and do it, for the LORD is with you." Later, beginning in verse 4, God appears to Nathan and tells him why David isn't allowed to build the temple.

Does Nathan ever say that God is going to allow David to build the temple? No. He simply says go ahead and do what you wish and that "the Lord is with you." Compare this to Russell and Rutherford's bombastic proclamations regarding 1914 and 1925 (Russell declaring that 1914 is "God's date and not ours" and that 1914 is "the end of the time of trouble, not the beginning"; and Rutherford's "indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die"). There's simply no comparison, and when Watchtower followers attempt to draw one, it's just another attempt to grasp at straws.

Also, the Watchtower attempts to "have its cake and eat it too" by seeking all of thebenefits of divine inspiration but none of the accountability. For years, the Society has demanded that its followers hang on its every word, foregoing educational, career, and family opportunities because "The End Is Near." However, when "The End" fails to show up on time, the Society absolves itself of any responsibility by claiming that it's not really an inspired prophet and blaming its followers for reading too much into what was said/written.

This sort of conduct shouldn't surprise us. Just like many other large man-made religious/political/business organizations, the Watchtower plays by its own rules and avoids accountability at all costs.

6

Former WT attorney Olin Moyle's papers at Princeton University

by Olin Moyles Ghost in

olin r. moyle was an attorney for the watchtower society from 1935 to 1939. he left bethel in 1939 due to becoming disillusioned with "judge" rutherford's conduct.

a copy of moyle's resignation letter can be found here: http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/downloads/1939%20olin%20moyles%20letter%20to%20rutherford.pdf.

the letter enraged rutherford, and he immediately dismissed moyle and his wife from bethel.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Has anyone (perhaps in the New Jersey area) taken a look at these materials? I wonder if Jim Penton or Barbara Anderson have reviewed these documents in connection with their research. According to the university website:

The collection consists of works, correspondence, three diaries (1931-1951), a scrapbook, printed
matter, and newspaper clippings of Moyle, an attorney for the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.
The collection contains a typed manuscript with corrections of Moyle's unpublished book Christ's
Glorious Church and descriptions of various legal proceedings, particularly those of Joseph F.
Rutherford, in which Moyle was one of the society's attorneys.

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

John 14:6: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me and The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc."

723

The PERFECT Translation...for Churchoids!

by theMadJW in

http://www.themadjws.com/thercvbible.htm.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Wow, this thread is still going. Cool!

How about another one from the New World Translation - 2014 "centennial" edition:

Luke 6:68: "Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, where shall we go? The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has the words of eternal life."

23

Advice on introducing doubts to friend

by gutted in

i am asking you for your opinion/advice on questions or ideas to introduce to my friend to make him start doubting the wbts.

no doubt when he sees my new goatee it will be a bit unnerving for him, maybe i could use this as a starting point.

perhaps you have things that have worked others?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Gutted, sounds like you had a good conversation. I understand your friend's dilemma ("it's either the witnesses or no organized religion at all"). I had that same issue years ago, and that's what kept me in for longer than I should have...

But here's a way to approach that issue. Ask him to think about what "organization" he would have needed to join in the year 600 A.D; 1200 A.D., 1700 A.D., etc. The point is that the Witnesses admit and recognize that there was no real "organization" from the 2nd Century A.D. to the time of C.T. Russell in the late 1800s. So, who's to say that today is any different? In other words, isn't it possible (perhaps even likely) that today is no different from 1600, 1700, etc. in terms of there not being any "organization"?

See, as Witnesses, we are conditioned to view things through a particular lens--namely that we are living in the Last Days and there must be an organization doing the worldwide preaching work. For years, I used this "logic" to squelch my doubts about the WTS/JW faith. But, if the JWs are wrong about 1914 and the Last Days (and they are), then there's no need for there to be an organization doing the worldwide preaching work--even under WTS theology.

72

Head Count request, are you male or female? Lets count!

by asilentone in

at her recent thread, changeling was asking us if there are more men than women leaving the org.

lets find out.. .

i am a male.

Olin Moyles Ghost

male

23

Advice on introducing doubts to friend

by gutted in

i am asking you for your opinion/advice on questions or ideas to introduce to my friend to make him start doubting the wbts.

no doubt when he sees my new goatee it will be a bit unnerving for him, maybe i could use this as a starting point.

perhaps you have things that have worked others?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Listen to everyone who suggested you should ask questions. That's your best shot. Witnesses don't like being preached to. (who does?) But they're accustomed to people asking them questions.

You could have the most meticulously researched, airtight explanation for the generation, false prophecies, blood, 607, etc., but it won't matter because as soon as you start preaching the JW will shut down.

You'll have much better results by simply asking questions and, if the conversation goes well, perhaps gently introducing some facts (for example, "I did some research in the library and was surprised to see that none of the encyclopedias say Jerusalem was destroyed in 607" or "I read in the Proclaimers book that for decades we taught that the Last Days began in 1874").

You probably know this already, but make sure you have non-apostate sources for any information you plan to present. Obviously the best sources are WT publications, but scholarly publications like encyclopedias are ok. Witnesses will often dismiss information coming from websites/blogs (even if they're not "apostate" per se).

Be prepared to have your motives questioned and for the JW to ask where you got this information and why you're asking these questions. Witnesses are trained to be scared of this type of questioning. There's not much you can do about it other than be prepared for it. A good scripture to have in your back pocket is 1 John 4:1 which says not to believe every inspired expression but to test it. If you get heat for asking uncomfortable questions, you can point out that the Bible commands Christians to test what we hear and read--and that's what you're trying to do.

Don't try to hit it out of the park on the first conversation. Be patient. If JW stuff doesn't come up during the conversation, don't force it. Focus on keeping your relationship with your friend first. If religion does come up, play it cool. This is hard to do, I know. If you see the walls start coming up, you should be the one to change the subject to something other than JW/WTS stuff. Don't be the stereotypical obsessive-compulsive "apostate."

My final piece of advice is to be honest. This does not mean you should tell your JW friend everything. But it does mean you shouldn't lie, exaggerate, or overstate your position (for example, I find that some ex-JWs overstate issues related to what the WTS published about 1975 and I think it hurts their credibility). If you are wrong on any fact, the JW will seize on it and use it to discredit everything else you say. There is plenty of well-documented material, so there's no need to cut corners or exaggerate.

Hope this helps.